Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar

Previous HN discussion about that video: link ▶ this video I posted about PCR: link This is a great video! They discussed and demonstrate Cedar's early text selection, copy and move commands, and compare them to Larry Tesler’s cut and paste (which didn't require any special keys or more than one mouse button). The Tioga text editor and other Cedar applications made common operations like repeatedly copying text into a document from different places very easy and streamlined (fewer actions than cut, copy and paste), by using the shift key while selecting text. Cedar took full advantage of the three button mouse as well as the control and shift keys (for 12 combinations of actions in any context, that worked the same everywhere). I think SunView and maybe even OpenWindows also supported a similar (but obscure) “quick paste” mode, where you hold down the special “Copy” function key, select some text without disturbing the current input focus, cursor position, or text selection, and then when you release the key, that text is pasted into the current input focus at the current position, moving the cursor forward. That way you didn’t have to lose your current selection or position, in order to just select some other text and copy it in. Here, I found the code to do it in an old version of NeWS -- it was the cut key to move, or the paste key to copy, and it's called the "Secondary" selection (rank=Secondary): link % Cut key: Either delete the primary selection (stashing it % on the

Be prepared to be amazed with what Xerox PARC and others were doing, while Bell Labs was busy pushing for UNIX. "Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar" ▶ this video "Emulating a Xerox Star (8010) Information System Running the Xerox Development Environment (XDE) 5.0" link "Documents as User Interfaces Video Demo" link "SYMBOLICS S-PACKAGES 3D GRAPHICS AND ANIMATION DEMO" link "Alto System Project: Dan Ingalls demonstrates Smalltalk" link "Action!, the worlds first dynamic interface builder - 1988" (Interface Builder percursor, written in Lisp) link "The Interlisp programming environment" link And the cherry, how Lucid used Lisp ideas for their Energize C++ IDE, including an image based format for AST storage link link

Good that you mention Engelbart, because none of the mainstream desktop OSes are close to his ideas, or what the Xerox workstations allowed for, ironically Windows is probably the one most closest to it. While GNU/Linux have the necessary tooling for making it as well, but thanks to the fragmentation and some communities hatred against GNOME/KDE, it will never happen. This is what a modern desktop OS should look like, "Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar" ▶ this video Including the part of being written on a memory safe systems programming language.

Here's another great historic oral history panel with a live demo of Xerox PARC's Cedar, including Eric Bier, Nick Briggs, Chris Jacobi, and Paul McJones: Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar This interpretive production was created from archival footage of Eric Bier, PARC research scientist, demonstrating the Cedar integrated environment and programming language on January 24, 2019. Cedar was an evolution of the Mesa environment/language, developed at PARC’s Computer Science Laboratory originally for the Xerox Alto. Mesa was modular and strongly-typed, and influenced the later Modula family of languages. Cedar/Mesa ran on the D-machine successors to the Alto (such as the Dorado) and added features including garbage collection, and was later ported to Sun workstations. Cedar/Mesa’s integrated environment featured a graphical window system and a text editor, Tioga, which could be used for both programming and document preparation, allowing for fonts, styles, and graphics to be embedded in code files. The editor and all its commands were also available everywhere, including on the command console and in text fields. The demo itself is running through a Mac laptop remotely logged into Bier’s Sun workstation at PARC using X Windows. Bier demonstrates the Cedar development environment, Tioga editor, editing commands using three mouse buttons, sophisticated text search features, the command line, and the Gargoyle graphics editor, which was developed as part of Bier’s UC Berkeley Ph.D. diss

It is inspired by it as the wikipedia[0] article notes. Both are inspired by Cedar/Mesa[1] from PARC. There is a great video of Eric Bier showing some of cedars capabilities on youtube[2]. [0] link [1] link [2] ▶ this video

There are definitely a lot of difficult issues and trade-offs about implementing true "WYSIWYG" editors that let you layout text and graphics that looks exactly the same on the screen and when printed. This Cedar demonstration video has some great examples of many of these issues. The Tioga text editor was "WYSIMOLWYG": what you see is more or less what you get. ▶ this video Some problems were due to technology and aren't as bad any more. Cedar and NeWS used black-and-white screens and didn't have anti-aliased fonts. CPUs were much slower and memory was much tighter and graphics were not accelerated, so even with color displays (which were usually only 8 bits with a colormap that makes anti-aliasing very difficult), anti-aliased text wasn't practical. And fonts rendered at screen resolutions have totally different measurements than high resolution printed fonts, so words have different widths and get flowed and wrapped differently, so the formatting is quite different. NeWS had a "setprintermatch" primitive that makes the font rendering machinery use the official precise printer measurements for fonts, instead of the actual pixel screen measurements. That was useful for the PostScript previewer, and for editors previewing how formatted text will look. (There was a nice port of FrameMaker to NeWS, but I don't remember how its preview features worked.) But text rendered with printer metrics looks terrible and is hard to read, so you wouldn't want to actually edit text like that. NeW

I remember trying out Plan 9 a few years ago. I like its underpinnings; I like how the designers pushed the Unix notion of "everything is a file" to its limits, with various services being presented to the operating system as file servers implemented using a protocol named 9P. It's a cool research operating system with a lot of very interesting ideas, but ultimately it's not my daily driver due to a lack of hardware and software support, though I am working on a research project (but for conventional *nix operating systems) that takes advantage of 9P. Carmack's description of the rio GUI is apt; rio is heavily based on Xerox PARC's Cedar environment from the mid-1980s ( ▶ this video ). I had a hard time getting used to rio, though eventually I learned it. I even purchased an old Sun three-button mouse (with no click-wheel) since Plan 9 didn't like my click-wheel mouse. rio does not adopt a lot of the conventions that were introduced by the Apple Lisa, Apple Macintosh, and Microsoft Windows, resulting in a completely foreign experience for most new Plan 9 users. There is a misconception that Apple and Microsoft simply stole the idea of GUIs from Xerox PARC without further innovating on it. This misconception is false; the Apple Lisa and the Apple Macintosh introduced many GUI conventions that were not present in Xerox PARC's GUIs (this video comparing the Apple Lisa to the Xerox Star highlights the differences: link ), and Windows introduced additional innovations. Back to Plan 9

It is basically cargo cult, whole graphical workstations have been built with GC based languages 50 years ago. - Interlisp => link - Cedar => ▶ this video Imagine what we could have today with hardware that is mostly busy running Electron crap and CLI tools from the 1970s.

Now imagine using such a language for a full blown graphical workstation! "Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar" ▶ this video "Project Oberon" link "The Midori Operating System Overview" link link

Rumors of my Death, LLMification, and Enshittification are greatly exaggerated, Gumby! PS: about you comment below: The Novix NC4016 was FORTH coming. link DonHopkins on Jan 20, 2022 | parent | context | favorite | on: Xerox PARC Mesa Programming Language 5.0 (1979) [p... Previous HN discussion about that video: link Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar: ▶ this video >This interpretive production was created from archival footage of Eric Bier, PARC research scientist, demonstrating the Cedar integrated environment and programming language on January 24, 2019. Cedar was an evolution of the Mesa environment/language, developed at PARC’s Computer Science Laboratory originally for the Xerox Alto. Mesa was modular and strongly-typed, and influenced the later Modula family of languages. Cedar/Mesa ran on the D-machine successors to the Alto (such as the Dorado) and added features including garbage collection, and was later ported to Sun workstations. Cedar/Mesa’s integrated environment featured a graphical window system and a text editor, Tioga, which could be used for both programming and document preparation, allowing for fonts, styles, and graphics to be embedded in code files. The editor and all its commands were also available everywhere, including on the command console and in text fields. The demo itself is running through a Mac laptop remotely logged into Bier’s Sun workstation at PARC using X Windows. Bier demonstrates the Cedar development environment, Tioga editor, editing comman

Well, I also disagree. Just because a language has some form of automatic memory management, that doesn't mean it doesn't provide the same mechanisms of a language like C for low-level programming. Plenty of options, D, Go, Swift, C#, Nim, Eiffel, Common Lisp, Haskell, OCaml,.... Dead options that unfortunely didn't manage to win market adoption, Oberon, Oberon-2, Active Oberon, Component Pascal, Modula-2+, Modula-3, Cedar, Speaking of Cedar, when will Rust managed to have a full workstation OS? "Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar" ▶ this video Redox still has a bit to catch with what a full graphical workstation OS was capable of in 1980's hardware, using a systems programming language with automatic memory management. Naturally, there are other examples out from Xerox PARC, Genera and Texas Instruments on that regard.

You know what's a lot like Ada in a good way is Mesa, which evolved into Ceder, from Xerox PARC. I know people who really loved programming in it. They'd call it "Industrial Strength Pascal". It was a successful experiment in code reuse. A strongly typed language with strong separation between interfaces and implementations, which encouraged creating robust, hardened code. link >Mesa and Cedar had a major influence on the design of other important languages, such as Modula-2 and Java, and was an important vehicle for the development and dissemination of the fundamentals of GUIs, networked environments, and the other advances Xerox contributed to the field of computer science. Demonstration of the Xerox PARC Cedar integrated environment (2019) [video] (youtube.com) link Computer History Museum: Eric Bier Demonstrates Cedar ▶ this video Mark Weiser and others at Xerox PARC's ported the Cedar environment to Unix, which resulted in the development of the still-widely-used Boehm–Demers–Weiser conservative garbage collection. link I believe that stuff is the port of Cedar to the Sun. Xerox PARC developed "Portable Common Runtime", which was basically the Cedar operating system runtime, on top of SunOS (1987 era SunOS, not Solaris, so no shared libraries or threads, which PCR had to provide). He demonstrates compiling a "Hello World" Cedar shell command, and (magically behind the scenes) dynamically linking it into the running shell and invoking it. Experiences Creating a Portable